"Sustainability implies a worldview of a kindly and caring nature, a nature that's easily raped by technology, industry, capitalism, and modernism. It implies a nature that will automatically protect rainforests, whales, and endangered species if we greedy modern humans rein in our consumerist lusts. If we get rid of our SUVs and of our industrial factories, this worldview tells us that nature will go back to the greenery and the reliability of some mythic good old days.rnBut that view of nature isn't true. Nature is not the motherly protector. Nature is just the opposite. She tosses us curves and challenges our creativity. The challenge to create is what Mother Nature and her favorite game - evolution - are really all about. Which means we need a major worldview change. ( Source: www.scientificblogging.com/howa...u_why )
"Our goal is not sustainability. It's not to bow and grovel hoping Mother Nature will also freeze in place. Our challenge is to outrun nature by inventing radically new ways to deal with change. We have to be able to raise food in drought. We have to be able to raise a rich bounty of fruits, vegetables, and grain in flood or in a new ice age. If necessary, we have to farm the bacteria that love the deep freeze of the Antarctic, the bacteria that live in rock and the bacteria that thrive in radioactivity.If we want to make nature proud, it's time to ride the whirlwind."
(Source: www.scientificblogging.com/howa...ut_it )
"Our goal is not sustainability. It's not to bow and grovel hoping Mother Nature will also freeze in place. Our challenge is to outrun nature by inventing radically new ways to deal with change. We have to be able to raise food in drought. We have to be able to raise a rich bounty of fruits, vegetables, and grain in flood or in a new ice age. If necessary, we have to farm the bacteria that love the deep freeze of the Antarctic, the bacteria that live in rock and the bacteria that thrive in radioactivity.If we want to make nature proud, it's time to ride the whirlwind."
(Source: www.scientificblogging.com/howa...ut_it )
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 2:04 PMit sounds like you have a pretty narrow view of sustainability.
a dynamic approach (holistic) to dynamic issues would still be sustainable .. probably the only way to be sustainable in a dynamic world. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Wed, April 16, 2008 - 3:45 PMWhat a disappointment. I thought this thread was going to be about tantric technique. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 4:48 PMwil, i love your reply! and not a giggle from the crowd.
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Thu, April 17, 2008 - 8:38 AMI suppose that's the problem with the term sustainability, because there is no exact definition and it can give way to a variety of different interpretations and perspectives. For me, although I do think there is a basic goodness or love that fuels all, which is simply the miracle of life and the fact that we are able to be in this moment of time having this conversation, the term sustainability implies more of a lifestyle for me of reducing greed and consumption and this philosophy of there's never enough. It's about reducing my level of consumption to what I actually need. sustainability also implies that the earth has finite resources that can't be replaced after they are overused. now this is to be debated, but I think the main point of sustainability is that us humans have to start thinking about and designing our institutions to nurture and respect all humans and all life to the best of our abilities. This is not to say that nature won't take its own course of action, perhaps with a devestating volcanic eruption, etc., but I think we need to do our best to respect and foster life as conscious beings. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Thu, April 17, 2008 - 4:11 PM"Sustainability" -- the ability to be sustained -- strikes me as being, on a personal level, equivalent to being in the ICU on a life-support system... "the patient is now fully sustainable, even though brain-dead..."
Sustainability isn't enough. If there is any meaning in this human existence, it is not merely to survive, but to flourish... -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 4:14 AMSurely one needs sustenance to flourish -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 7:53 AM
Surely one does...
But "sustainability," as I hear that word being used, would limit sustenance to the bare minimum... "consume less, produce less, move around less, be the least that you can be... stop fidgeting and don't sigh when I'm talking to you..." It's the new global nanny!
If the concept of "sustainability" had been born in the 19th century, we would not be having this conversation right now, because there would be no internet, and no computers... just books and letters to read and write by the light our whale-oil lamps at night... -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 10:43 AMSustainability simply means being able to sustain a balance between our lifestyle and Earth's ecosystems. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 11:28 AMWell, that sounds good... but what exactly does it mean? Does it mean we should consume more renewable resources, until we are consuming them as fast as they can be renewed? Is that the "balance" you have in mind? Or does it mean we should cease consuming non-renewable resources completely, because any such consumption changes the balance?
Besides which, it seems the real objective in what you are saying is not "sustainability" per se, but balance -- why not call it "balanceabiltiy"? Actually, the English language already has a perfectly good word that means "ability to maintain balance": equilibrium. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 12:27 PMI think, it requires a new way. We have simply become too attached to a high energy lifestyle. We need to slowly turn around and become low energy, low carbon communities. We simply cannot sustain ourselves at the pace we are consuming resources right now. It is not a matter of continuing the way we are going and switching from non renewable to renewable resources. Each and every town city suburb and country have to sit down and work out how they are going to become self sustaining. It will require enthusiasm, imagination, ingenuity and community. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 12:35 PMtransitionculture.org/2005/11...on-plan/
Here in Ireland, Kinsale is working on an energy descent plan for 2010, i think. They want to be carbon neutral and sustainable. There is a link to download the plan on the link i've posted. I hope it is inspiring. I don't av time to really read it thoroughly myself as im preparing for exams. But Kinsale hope to be successful and then teach other communities how to make the transition!
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 12:41 PMhere's another way to look at it: being sustainable would mean having a lifestyle that could go on for millions of years, save an outside influence. we are NOT sustainable today, and civilization's lifespan is being measured in decades. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 1:51 PMWith that timescale in mind, we would have to say that Planet Earth is inherently unsustainable, because it will be swallowed up and incinerated when the Sun becomes a red giant star in a mere 7.5 billion years... (actually, the biosphere will have been stripped away long before the actual event, as the solar flux increases in the early stages).
It would seem that most advocates of "sustainability" are in denial about the truth of impermanence: All things that come into being, pass out of being -- change is the only constant.
But don't get me wrong -- I'm all for living as well as possible, for as long as possible, and not denying that opportunity to others -- even others yet to come. I just don't think the word "sustainability" is much help in achieving anything of value, because it is too nebulous, too ambiguous -- and means too many different things in different people's mouths, often serving to conceal a political agenda.
At best, "sustainability" is a value-neutral term -- that is, the value of sustainability depends on the value of what is being sustained. Personally, I don't see much value in sustainable poverty, or sustainable misery. But, to each his own -- at least until the Eco-Cops start enforcing their version of sustainability...
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 3:28 PMpoverty and misery are a reality for alot of people, but for others merely a state of mind. 7.5billion years is a fecking long time and we won't be here for most of it but future generations will be. I have no doubt that the earth can find her own balance, but in the meantime future generations of life on earth will have to deal with the backlash. Why leave out mess for them to deal with?
But i do agree, there are a hell of a lot of social issues to be dealt with first and foremost. Poverty and misery is an endless cycle for many, but i think for the privileged few, it is only a state of mind. And it is up to the haves to make IT work whatever their notion of sustainability is so that the have nots can benefit and flourish too
it depends on your idea of wealth really. Is it a bank account full of money and an SUV or a garden full of food and breathable air? -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 3:36 PMand i really don't think, it's about regressing to Neanderthal times, but more about creating new cleaner technologies, harnessing mother natures energies to provide cleaner power and being creative evolving beings! -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 7:15 PM>>more about creating new cleaner technologies, harnessing mother natures energies to provide cleaner power and being creative evolving beings!<<
I can get on board with that... just don't call it "sustainability." -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 9:01 PMAre you really that attached to semantics? -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 9:03 PMNo, I'm really that attached to reality. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 9:14 PMThe reality is that sustainability, as the term is commonly used, means something other than what you're making it out to be. Thus, you are arguing semantics, with no relevance to reality. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, April 18, 2008 - 9:23 PMI'm not sure whose common use you are referring to...
Sustainability, from its first use in the context of environmentalism by the Brundtland Commission, was deliberately ambiguous for the purpose of fostering a political agenda. It quickly became a conceptual "package deal" -- ostensibly meaning one thing, but serving as a vehicle to smuggle in alternative and sometimes contradictory meanings.
In general, I have a deep distrust of ill-defined concepts that attract passionate followers, a.k.a. "true believers"... -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 4:03 AMIf our current Western lifestyle is unsustainable, then eventually we will run out of resources to keep it going and things will change drastically. The obvious example is that when all the petroleum runs out, there will be no more cars. The idea of sustainability is to switch to resources (e.g. renewable ones instead of finite ones) and practices (e.g. recycling waste) that will allow us to keep living in much the same way indefinitely. Sustainability isn't the same as antimodernism. It isn't about going back to living in tree huts or caves like ape people. Although, it does have something in common with pre-modern lifestyles: the ape people did live sustainably. It isn't even about "saving" the earth. It's about saving our lifestyle. If you were running a business, and your business needed a raw material, you'd be stupid to rely on a finite resource instead of a renewable one, if you had the choice. The same goes for economic systems. Why lock all of our transportation systems into reliance on a finite resource (petroleum) if there is a renewable one available (alcohol from crops) that will do the same job? That's all sustainability is: choosing different resources. Saying "screw sustainability" is like saying "I'd rather walk or ride a donkey that run my car on alcohol". -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 6:00 PMAristotle's Girl >>Sustainability isn't the same as antimodernism....That's all sustainability is: choosing different resources.<<
I appreciate what you're saying, in the context of your understanding of the word "sustainability." Unfortunately, as different meanings have been attached to the term over the past 30 years or so, that's NOT all sustainability is. And I'm certainly not the only one to notice -- this is from the Wikipedia article on Sustainability:
"One reason many commentators consider sustainability hard to define, is the sheer number of meanings of sustainability that abound. The popularity of the term, and the many isolated attempts on the part of governments and other agents to begin sustainability programs, have led to these competing definitions, and much confusion. The often-uttered statement that there "is no agreed-upon definition of sustainability" results from this confusion."
And this is from the Wikipedia article on Sustainable Development:
"Sustainable development is an eclectic concept, as a wide array of views fall under its umbrella. The concept has included notions of weak sustainability, strong sustainability and deep ecology. Different conceptions also reveal a strong tension between ecocentrism and anthropocentrism. Thus, the concept remains weakly defined and contains a large amount of debate as to its precise definition."
"Sustainable development is said to set limits on the developing world. While current first world countries polluted significantly during their development, the same countries encourage third world countries to reduce pollution, which sometimes impedes growth. Some consider that the implementation of sustainable development would mean a reversion to pre-modern lifestyles."
btw: I like your house... I wasn't aware that Hearst Castle had been moved to Greece...
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 4:43 AMI like the term sustainability..It was an eye opener for me 16 years ago..
It was introduced by Meadows and Randers in the famous .."Limits to Growth"
Proving that endless growth of consumption and production is not sustainable..
Because it will quickly drain our resources..
Important read..
Beyond The Limits To Growth
A new update to The Limits to Growth reveals that we are closer to "overshoot and collapse" - yet sustainability is still an achievable goal
by Donella H. Meadows, Dennis L. Meadows, and Jørgen Randers
Summer 1992, Page 10
Copyright (c)1992, 1996 by Context Institute
"Grow or die," goes the old economic maxim. But in 1972 a team of systems scientists and computer modelers challenged conventional wisdom with a ground-breaking study that warned that there were limits - especially environmental limits - to how "big" human civilization and its appetite for resources could get. Beyond a certain point, they said in effect, the maxim could very well be "grow and die."
That same team of researchers (minus one) has just released an historic update to The Limits to Growth. The new book - Beyond the Limits: Confronting Global Collapse, Envisioning a Sustainable Future - is instant must-reading.
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www.context.org/ICLIB/IC32/Meadows.htm -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 10:22 AMAh, yes, "The Limits To Growth" -- that was a real wake-up call... much like hysterical screaming in the middle of the night...
>>Proving that endless growth of consumption and production is not sustainable.. <<
Yup, they "proved" that the world would completely run out of oil by 1992... Good thing they did an update (coincidentally, in 1992).
As noted in Wikipedia:
Limits to Growth attracted controversy as soon as it was published. Yale economist Henry C. Wallich labeled the book "a piece of irresponsible nonsense" in a Newsweek editorial dated March 13, 1972. Wallich's main complaints are that the book was published as a publicity stunt with great fanfare at the Smithsonian in Washington, and that there was insufficient evidence for many of the variables used in the model. According to Wallich, "the quantitative content of the model comes from the authors' imagination, although they never reveal the equations that they used." Considering that the detailed model and Meadows' et al justifications were not published until 1974 (two years after Limits to Growth) in the book Dynamics of Growth in a Finite World, Wallich's complaint about "the peculiar presentation of their work and by their unscientific procedures" had merit at the time.
Similar criticisms were made by others. Robert M. Solow from MIT, complained about the weak base of data on which Limits to Growth's predictions were made (Newsweek, March 13, 1972, page 103). Dr. Allen Kneese and Dr. Ronald Riker of Resources for the Future (RFF) stated:
"The authors load their case by letting some things grow exponentially and others not. Population, capital and pollution grow exponentially in all models, but technologies for expanding resources and controlling pollution are permitted to grow, if at all, only in discrete increments." -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sat, April 19, 2008 - 2:31 PM"Similar criticisms were made by others. Robert M. Solow from MIT, complained about the weak base of data on which Limits to Growth's predictions were made"
Robert Solow should be ashamed of himself because the Limits to growth did not make any predictions.
Did he read the book?
But in either case the Limits to Growth is really making a comeback lately..
(Also check out the graphs behind the link)
Peak oil and The Limits to Growth: two parallel stories
Published on 12 Feb 2008 by The Oil Drum: Europe. Archived on 12 Feb 2008.
by Ugo Bardi
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Dennis Meadows, Donella Meadows, Jorgen Randers, and William Behrens III published their work in 1972 with the title of "The Limits to Growth." The book developed a series of scenarios according to various hypothesis on the availability of resources and on world policies that could be developed and implemented in the future. All the scenarios, except for some special cases, generated the collapse of the world's industrial and agricultural systems at some date within the 21st century. Forrester had arrived to similar results in his 1971 book.
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The work of the LTG team had a huge impact, with millions of copies of the book sold. Hubbert's work also had a considerable impact, although mostly within the world of specialists in crude oil. However, as years passed, both studies were strongly criticized. The period of apparent abundance of the 1990s seemed to caused the total obsolescence of all ideas and theories that predicted bad times ahead. The Limits to Growth, went through a phase of active demonization that pictured it as having been "wrong" in its predictions. Even though the collapse envisioned in the scenarios was to take place only in 21st century, still today for most people the LTG study is an example of flawed predictions. Hubbert's work, instead, was simply forgotten.
But the models and the ideas that were behind these studies were not abandoned. The Limits to Growth study was updated and the latest version was published in 2004. It is, at present, generating again considerable interest.
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www.energybulletin.net/40217.html -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sun, April 20, 2008 - 5:56 AMOh, I'm glad you like my house! It is a replica of Hearst Castle but it is an environmentally friendly one ;-) Yes, I agree that there are different definitions of sustainability. Obviously, some definitions reflect an anti-development view or a desire to stop humanity's further impact on the planet. My definition I hope was more neutral. I think that newer technology will help us preserve the environment, instead of destroy it, and that in turn will help us survive. -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sat, June 7, 2008 - 4:54 AMYes, there are all too many definitions for sustainability. A truly neutral definition (or as close as one can get), however, wouldn't be fervently anti-development or looking forward blindly to new technology. It's not the method itself -- as in limiting development or using a new gadget for an individual system -- but how that method is employed. Maybe with our exploding population levels iron-clad restrictions on future development will only disadvantage more individuals later. If you actually delve into the growing array of "green" or "appropriate" technologies, though, you also learn quick that almost each one by itself has a unique and significant down-side. CFL's (or "swivel bulbs") may be equivalent to a 60 watt incandescent using only 13, but they're almost all shipped over from manufacturing plants in China and contain uneasy levels of mercury. Solar panels are the cleanest, most unrefined energy source that could ever exist, but within the microfilm is a solvent closely resembling toxic battery acid. Ethonol may be a much less processed, home-grown alternative to fuel, but being made from corn, the monocrop our society is the most dependent on as it now stands, it slaughters food prices by a very strange inter-disciplinary competition and is a large factor in our beginning international nutrition shortages. I don't think I should even have to explain at this point why both hydrogen and so-called "Clean Coal" are ten times more unbelievably counter-productive than all of those. The best individual methods we have are still LED's, Bio-diesel, and fully-electric vehicles (which are in fact MORE than possible already and the models that were out were full mid-size and could drive just as fast as anything have been unmercifully sabotaged by their own manufacturing companies!). None of these will make that big leap by themselves anyway. Sustainability, therefore, is an on-going large-scale interaction between all methods that takes the future into account with each new step. We limit fully wasteful developments but promote new cooperative types of communities. Measuring out the best angle for solar panels before the roofs are built gives maximum energy conversion with minimum toxic surface area. Some CFL's can be up on high ceilings of businesses where they won't damage human lungs if broken while LED's can be in residences. If the auto companies would let us, we could make all new manufacturing of cars those that are only electric and those of us content to drive old-fashioned used cars can keep them going until they're actually run down, and if possible use bio-diesel to keep McDonald's grease from ending up in the ocean. If ethonol could mix with gasoline, everyone could combine them so there's not too much oil plundered from Middle East soil or corn product diverted to fuel at any time. If you look at the larger picture, sustainability should be a large inter-woven web of all these so that the burden finally falls on the community and not the individuals, which has been the main fault of the environment movement. Sure, you can try to solve something like world hunger with scientific breakthroughs of genetically-modified laboratory crops, as Dan suggested at the beginning of this thread, causing untold amounts of new nutritional diseases later, or you can see the root problem of the system and break open the surplus food warehouses of multinationals (where thanks to corporate farm subsidies are encouraged to just sit there and rot) and preventatively redistribute adequate resources that are already here!
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sat, June 14, 2008 - 10:45 AMwhy not have a balance between? -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Sat, June 14, 2008 - 7:01 PMGood question. That's basically the point I was trying to make (perhaps not succinctly enough). "Green" technology isn't any more sustainable within itself, it's our systems and lifestyles that need overhauls all around...
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Tue, July 1, 2008 - 5:40 PMWhile all of these Tribe members dish out different definitions of a word that is "Sustainability", I believe it's an ineffective mind game to approach a topic like this with a grammatical intellect in overdrive. I believe Dan's perception of nature is erroneous in that he views mother nature as a foreign force. A variable threat rather than a nurturing force... And while I don't care to confirm or deny either aspect, the transcendental understanding may be to realize that we ARE nature - Not its victims, nor its perpetrators.
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 4:21 PMA very good point, and one we shouldn't ever forget as we go forward...
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Thu, July 3, 2008 - 5:48 PM<I believe Dan's perception of nature is erroneous in that he views mother nature as a foreign force. >
First of all, if you had read the article, you would see that I was posting the view posited by Howard Bloom.
And secondly, how do you conjecture that Bloom's perception of nature is as a variable threat?
Lastly, if the "transcendental understanding" is that we "are" nature, what is it exactly that is being "sustained" and what, then, is ever "wasted?"
www.scientificblogging.com/howa...you_0 -
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Re: Screw Sustainability
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 1:14 PMWe are nature, but we've also proven to be the perpetrators of some of the worst things that have ever happened to it. We can convince others by the semi-selfish imperative that it'll allow ourselves to live longer or relieve our offspring from even worse damage-control later, but it's really not just for the human race at all. We sustain biodiversity, plant nutrition, and air quality. It's all connected. Electricity as we now use it comes from burnt coal, cars obviously give off CO2, nuclear power pollutes not just the air but eventually groundwater sources as well. More development restricts more land for other species and concrete seals the Earth's crust over permanently causing its own weather disasters. We waste land to build the factories to give us electricity to pollute the air to endanger the species that are left after mass development. Let's not also forget that it's trees and plants that would help us naturally sequester all that carbon, so the more land we save for them to grow on the better the air quality along with that restriction in development. Not to mention the less space we have for human encroachment, the more we'll hopefully be discouraged from having so many of our own children and thus try and curb exponential population or at least adopt children in need already born so as not to perpetuate the explosion that will inevitably make all this harder in the future. We always feel we understand what needs to be done in an ecosystem when we're outside of the equation, but the same rule applies when we're fully intertwined into it. There's not enough predators to keep us in check except our own stupid mistakes and the continuing greed of corporate interests. Since we are nature, the same rule applies and if we seriously look at the problems as not separate, but chain reactions of each other, it's hard not see that true "sustainability" would reach straight to the root of all of it, cut to the core that the usual individualist environmentalist imperatives have long neglected. What we're wasting is ultimately everything, all our resources, and thus what we have to sustain is the natural systems that will keep them available for us and the entire biosphere.
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